When we at the spring seminar Russ talked about pumpkins only getting as big as what the plant would support at the time it's pollinated. (don't know how to say this)
First case - female at 8 feet out. Pumpkin is set and will only get as big as the supporting plant allows so we should terminate growth.
Second case - another female at 12 feet . Now is this pumpkin looking at the support of the existing plant plus the competition of the pumpkin at 8 feet?
If you want a pollination at 12 feet should you cull the 8 footer right away so it doesn't affect the 12 foot.
This is a great topic! Very informative. Thanks Russ for the insights and to all the other opinions. I will be terminating early this year because of this discussion.
Just a heads up on the homemade ethylene. When squeezing out the contents of the pillow I poked
my poor little baby in the side with the corner of the ziploc bag. I'm sure it will be a permanent mark.
Love that line. "its the pumpkin with the best plumbing that wins at the weigh-off not the one with the biggest solar panels..... "
So this line of reasoning says that we should terminate the vine at the pumpkin along with all other growth right ? If we want a bigger plant, we should wait to polinate untill we have a bigger plant, not try to grow one after pollination. Thanks so much for your answers. they are a big help.
Chris, OK let me try the 1st question. In theory yes a side vine should have the same potential.... However when was the last time a grower grew a side vine fruit without competing sinks being in play.... So side vines usually under go development with a lot of competitors..... So their potential is always limited..... Lets be honest and say this would never happen in a real patch...
The plant orients itself to the sinks that are actively growing.... These can be roots, shoots, flowers and fruits. They all compete for resources.... Main vine fruit are more prominent because of their positioning on the plant.... This is due to Apical Dominance. Auxins are more prevalent in apical areas thus fruit on the main vine are nearer to the constant demand for resources. So they are closer to the transpiration stream which guides the flow of water and nutrients. More resources flow by and toward them because of their location. They are by nature built with bigger and strong pipes if you will because of Apical Dominance.....
The most important thing to take away from the discussion is that competition of any kind is a stress-or to developing sinks.... Why would anyone want to knowingly grow a pumpkin that has limited potential, yet this is what we in the GVGO are doing... This is now science fact.....its not fiction....
Years ago before the modern era pre-1500 we used to believe that a plant if terminated from mid to late July was the gold standard.... In Ontario this usually ended up being 10 to 15 DAP.... However with advent of the Savage study we know now 100% for sure that plant size after flower bud development is irrelevant.... So I will preach this for ever and a day.... terminate the plant as soon as you see the baby appear on the vine. This IMO is the ultimate conclusion of Savage and several good Doctors and Scientists. The fact is Termination is best done 10 days or so before pollination...... This ensures adequate resource are and will be allocated to the fruits and peduncle for cell division.... Please remember that its the pumpkin with the best plumbing that wins at the weigh-off not the one with the biggest solar panels.....
So a stronger sink (FRUIT) and more cells in that fruit will result is a larger end fruit. So one that was located on say a side vine could/would out grow one on the main if it was stronger?? correct ?
Also, if baby fruit (A) at pollination time is larger then baby fruit (B) does that mean it ,all other things equal, it has more cells and therefore more potential ?
Does the plant orient itself to the sink? like direct its resources to the sink, then if that sink is removed, can it redirect to another sink as effectively as the first ?
Multiple questions here, thanks I'm trying to understand more how the plant works. Thanks :)
Chris, The true answer is you never know the potential of a plant or fruit until Oct. Never the less anything in excess of 500 is good IMO. However the point I'm making is that when you see the flower buds begin to develop its time to halt all Apical growth. This includes side vines too.... its not new idea...... You simply can't have competing sinks on a plant if you want 2,000 Lbs.... It really is as and building better architecture of the fruit and its internal pathways will get you there...........
Russ, but isn't there some "optimal" size plant. example, we aren't growing 1500 lb pumpkins in 150 sq ft. , so i agree with what your writing, but how do we know whats right ??
Don't wast time growing salad!
"There was no evidence that changes in leaf area or
photosynthetic capacity impacted fruit size. Instead, giant
varieties differed in their ovary morphology and contained
more phloem on a cross-sectional area basis in their petioles
and pedicels than the ancestral variety. These results suggest
that sink activity is important in determining fruit size and
that giant pumpkins have an enhanced capacity to transport
IMO its best to use Big Zac or Delicious leaves as the ethylene will be most reactive to the plant. You can also Beef Stake tomatoes placed in a zip lock and left to stew for awhile.....I'm going out to puff Rusty Red this morning with a two day old baggy filed with Big Zac leaves...
thanks Russ I will give it a go
Perfect timing Russ, I just cut the (overgrown) lawn this morning and made a bunch of Ethylene Puffer Pillows ™. I need all the help I can get this year.
OK, John thats goods stuff too..... So, find a small hand pump type sprayer.....I use a 1 liter hand sprayer to do the deed..... Mix it just like that and spray in morning and evening.....Drench the little bastard and its stem area profusely.....Just do it to one plant AGP and a few tow-maters and LG's or other fruit to compare.....And don't forget to puff with ethylene up to and during the first 48 hours after pollination.....by end of season you will have a personal best....Kelp and or seaweed can be sprayed on the fruit and stem all season long at reduced rates and intervals........
Note to John: I know you'll understand this.... the procedure outlined is called Cytokinensis its the cell division process during which a single cell divides into two daughter cells.
This is the poor mans solution to using that PGR's and other chemicals...... You first heard about this several years ago. The marketed PGR that regulates cell division is called Forchlorfenuron and is used in apple and fruit orchards.....so some you may already have heard of it......
Physiological effects of cytokinins are primarily Cell division. The most important biological effect of kinetin on plants is to induce cell division......
This link is terrific....
a seed soaking mixture is 1 tsp / cup of water
i have the seaweed that the GVGO sells I think its neptunes
Depends on the concentration. I have been using a concentrated mix that Ron sells. The result is a week solution with water.
Is the seaweed spray full strength or are you mixing it with water
Pheeeeeeeeuw thanks Russ
How to make Ethylene gas.
Zip lock plastic bags work best. Place in the bag a fresh pumpkin leaves or a newly aborted or culled fruit. Don't worry about crushing the leaves.....seal the bag tightly and make sure that there is a little air in the bag. You want to ensure that the bag is not free from all air as the oxygen will help to produce ethylene more effectively. So a little is just right. Place in a warm, partially shaded area to start the gas building process...it will not take long.....By following this procedure you are creating an accurate means of collecting the plants own natural ethylene production.....................
Check on the bags every few hours. Looking for signs of ripening or decay, you can begin to see the rate of ethylene production with the fruits. In short order you will have concrete evidence of the creation of ethylene gas as the bag will begin to puff up as the gases are released from the green matter inside. Currently I have three bags on the go this morning......Follow he steps above wait a few hours and repeat for a few days.......Now watch it grow.....
Please a few of you try this right now on a plant or two.....when you pick THE ONE start by terminating all growth IMMEDIATELY.....spray the fruit and pendunckle with kelp or seaweed or other cytokines and or Ethylene too.....This should begin just as you see the fruit buds developing and end 10 days after pollination....Collect grass clippings or other green waste in a sealed bag....place in sunlight for a few hours or so......bring the bag to the pollinated flower within 48 hours of pollination. Pinch a tiny, tiny hole in the bag with a pin. Puff the air inside the bag over the fruit and stem. The ethylene gas in the bag will trigger in the plant a response to stimulate cell division.......Come and tell me in the fall at Port Elgin that you have just won the GVGO 1 Ton Challenge.....This is the primary result of years of research I have done along with Matt Debaco, Brad Wursten, Joe Ailts and a few good doctors and scientists who have studied the plumbing of the AGP.
P.S. I'm back in the game........Bahahahahaha........
So, i know its hard to understand for most folks....We need to loose our paradigm.....You see which ever fruit you choose and whenever you choose it the plants future size does not determine fruit size....its instead how many cells the fruit has that determines the size in October......Many a grower has debated this with me.....But one can't argue science facts.....the rest is fiction....I have studied this extensively.....we need only to look at the 8.41MacCoy for proof.....Small plants can and do produce giant fruit simply because if you enhance cell division the pipes become bigger and better.
Growth Hormones Auxiin,, Giiberrelllliic Aciid & Cytokine 's.
Cytokinins (Cyt) like those found in kelp are a group of chemical hormones or plant growth regulators that influence cell division and shoot formation. Also Cyt helps to delay senescence of tissues in August. Cyt is responsible for moderating auxin transport throughout the plant, and its affects internodal length, Fruit and stem cell division and leaf size. Lower levels of auxins are known to slow growth in May. Cytokinins over-come apical dominance or the growth of shoots which is a major benefit for enhancing cell division in the fruit and peduncles. Therefore Cytokines are thought to induce cell division and regulation of the fruits cells just after pollination. The more cells a fruit has the more it can expand and thus grow larger. I suggest timing is everything Hold off on applications of Kelps which contain cytokinins until just before the pollination bud develops > this goes for the synthetic types as well. Synthetic Kinetin is a type of Cytokinin is commonly used in rooting products. "Root Booster" is a good product that does not contain kinetin. So avoiding large amounts seaweeds well help to speed up meristematic shoot tip growth leading up to pollination time. IF YOU want a bigger plant before pollination then hold off on Kelp. YOU MUST terminate everything a few days before pollination time. The sooner you do this the more auxin will be inhibited in the meristems. The cells of a fruit will develop freely without conflicting signals from competing hormones. Don’t worry about the plants size it's simply irrelevant as by pollination time the final fruit size is already determined at 48 hours or so after pollination. FInd a source of cytokine and apply it within 48 hours of pollination to induce cell division for a longer time period. I am currently spraying my maters twice a day with seaweed to enhance cell division. Certainly I'm positive that 3,000 is coming soon! Russ :)